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Date:	11/10/99 8:10:47 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 10 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1333<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re Zhodani<BR>
RE: Web Site<BR>
Re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
Re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
Re: Web Site<BR>
Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
Re: Read all about it ! Sixth Frontier War! It's Official! (... or not)<BR>
re: Zhodani<BR>
re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
Re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
RE: Evolution and the drifting generation ship (long)<BR>
re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
Re: Cultures (WAS Evolution...) Longish<BR>
Re: Cultures (WAS Evolution...) Longish<BR>
Re: Zhodani PoWs<BR>
Re: Fifth Frontier War Starts 20 November<BR>
Re: Nth Provincial Flamewar<BR>
Re: States in the Imperium (was Re: Coke for Kiri [OT]) [OT]<BR>
(OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:47:32 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Zhodani<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 01:07:29 -0600<BR>
>From: tim@premier.net<BR>
>Subject: Re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
><BR>
>I have been reading the Zhodani govt thread and find it very<BR>
>interesting since i dont have any of the supplements.  I would like<BR>
>to ask about the nobles, what about the nobles in rebillion?  I think<BR>
>this might cause great problems. They could not only protect<BR>
>themselves but change others minds  (prole) to side with them.<BR>
<BR>
Shodani have 3 "Castes", the upper and lower being Nobles and Proles, both<BR>
of which have multiple social strata. The third caste, the intendants, is a<BR>
middle caste, composed of born intendants and those prole children adopted<BR>
into noble families due to high psionic potential. This third caste, can,<BR>
if enough merit is shown, be promoted to the nobility. Prole children with<BR>
high psionic potential become proles. By inference, one can assume<BR>
non-heirs of the nobility might also revert to intendant status.<BR>
<BR>
The Nobility are policed by themselves, and also by the Tavershedzle. Note<BR>
that not all psionicists can shield; telepaths can, but non-telepaths<BR>
cannot. The Tavershedzle tend to draw from the intendant caste. The<BR>
Tavrshedzle are almost entirely telepaths of some level. All intendants and<BR>
nobles are psionically trained. Promotions appear to be based upon Job<BR>
Performance Merit, rather than Psionic merit. The worst case would be a<BR>
block of Tavrshedzle rebelling, but in general, the result would be much<BR>
like any "Noble Revolt" anywhere else... the other nobles would put it down<BR>
with a fury. Also note that zhodani do know about artificial psionic<BR>
shielding, and much better than imperial techs do at same tech level; they<BR>
use it  for switches by TL 12! so they could quite easily send in forces<BR>
with shields once they suspect a revolt. Additionally, should a higher<BR>
noble arrive and publicly announce the "relief due to needing treatment" of<BR>
a rebellious noble, the populace would likely believe it, and do everything<BR>
possible to see to it he was cured.<BR>
<BR>
Also note that, despite propaganda, Psionics play little in the day to day<BR>
life of Proles. Proles, even if not happy, know that they can become happy<BR>
upon request. They have no stigma against mental illness, a much better<BR>
understanding of the pathology, and how to treat (if not cure) most mental<BR>
illnesses; also, they have a much more liberal definition of a mental<BR>
illness than most of us on the list.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the example on page 14 of AM4-Zhodani notes the following (post<BR>
pick-up by the TP):<BR>
	"A few days later, the Prole returns home, much happier. His new<BR>
job is exactly what he needs and wants; a perfect outlet for his ambitions.<BR>
His successful neighbor, he now knows, leads a shallow life without the<BR>
enjoyment and fulfilment that it should have. The world itself seems<BR>
brighter and clearer."<BR>
	This pattern seems to indicate a number of things happened during<BR>
his stay with the reeducators:<BR>
1)	placed into a job better suited to his temperment and abilities (if<BR>
not existing skills)<BR>
2)	purged of jealousy via "programming"<BR>
3)	probable surgical and/or chemical alteration of any underlying<BR>
depression or anxiety disorders,<BR>
4)	the Prole is reassured that SOCIETY CARES enough to want to see him<BR>
well.<BR>
<BR>
also mentioned on p14 is that the "... result is excellent diagnosis and<BR>
careful treatment in reeducation centers. When treatment is complete, the<BR>
individual rejoins society without any stigma or blot on his record..."<BR>
<BR>
>Also as far as art work goes I think the Zhodani would have a cool<BR>
>since of visional/mental art. I can see them doing direct imput. Or<BR>
>you can do what I did for a Mage (tm) with an artist who had mind<BR>
>read/control.  His art respondant to the viwer.  So lets say its a sea<BR>
>painting and the viwer thought of a stormy sea.  The art would<BR>
>change to a stormy sea.  Though in this case the artist would have<BR>
>to be there.<BR>
><BR>
Not particularly likely... there is no evidence of "sustained phenomena" in<BR>
the rules norr in canon, nor is there any evidence of direct psionically<BR>
active hardware (with the possible exception of Virus, but that's for<BR>
another day/flame-war). Mage assumes you change the collective reality;<BR>
Psionics in traveller are merely "as yet unproven quantum-physics<BR>
macro-effects"[1]. At best, a noble or intendant might share his conception<BR>
of the finished sculpture to Prole Artisans, and have them do the labor...<BR>
<BR>
[1] well, not exactly "as yet unknown". A recent study (replicated at least<BR>
once) showed that human desire for a particular direction of result from a<BR>
computerized random number generator can in fact skew the results. on a<BR>
1-200 scale, it swung the results by 10 points in the desired direction<BR>
(mean went from 100 to 110 when high was desired, from 100 to 90 when low<BR>
was desired). Line of sight was not required. Range was not tested<BR>
thoroughly, but exceeded 250m. It is the first study to have been<BR>
replicated that showed discernable psionic phenomena. Even the Amazing<BR>
Randi has yet to be willing to address the study, in whole or in part,<BR>
publically. Have seen the study cited in 4 different shows, including<BR>
Discover Magazine (the TV Programme).<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:50:34 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Web Site<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Wayne Ewart<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 November 1999 10:23 PM<BR>
> To: TML<BR>
> Subject: Web Site<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Hi all<BR>
><BR>
>     Just got my web site up and running. Your comments are welcome.<BR>
><BR>
http://www.members.home.net/wewart/wewart/traveller/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
Wayne (CT/HG Templar wanna-be)<BR>
wewart@home.com<BR>
<BR>
Just had a look at your site, very nice so far. I like the backgrounds but<BR>
for some reason the images are appearing tiled in my browser. I don't no if<BR>
this is your site or the way I have by browser (IE5 at 1024x768)<BR>
Always nice to have a new Traveller site regardless of which rule set is<BR>
used.<BR>
Antony Farrell<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:25:23 +0100<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
<BR>
Antti Lahtinen wrote:<BR>
<snip><BR>
> This could be a basis for a espionage/rescue adventure, where<BR>
> the "rescuers" find out that they have been duped by false<BR>
> propaganda and there is nothing to be rescued. They have just<BR>
> killed large number of Zhodani children and senior citizens for<BR>
> no reason, and would now like to have a long private<BR>
> conversation with a certain imperial intelligence officers.<BR>
<BR>
... once they manage to get out of Zhodani-controlled space undetected.<BR>
Some passing noble might notice their stress (by psionic means), and<BR>
later decide to investigate. By that time, the PCs ship has already left<BR>
the planet, but it's not too far gone. Will the PCs make a run for it?<BR>
Will they be successful?<BR>
<BR>
And if they are caught, will they be exectuted? Probably not, but they<BR>
just might find themselves with a strong love for all things Zhodani.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:24:50 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
<BR>
> <snip><BR>
> > This could be a basis for a espionage/rescue adventure, where<BR>
> > the "rescuers" find out that they have been duped by false<BR>
> > propaganda and there is nothing to be rescued. They have just<BR>
> > killed large number of Zhodani children and senior citizens for<BR>
> > no reason, and would now like to have a long private<BR>
> > conversation with a certain imperial intelligence officers.<BR>
<BR>
> ... once they manage to get out of Zhodani-controlled space undetected.<BR>
> Some passing noble might notice their stress (by psionic means), and<BR>
> later decide to investigate. By that time, the PCs ship has already left<BR>
> the planet, but it's not too far gone. Will the PCs make a run for it?<BR>
> Will they be successful?<BR>
 <BR>
> And if they are caught, will they be exectuted? Probably not, but they<BR>
> just might find themselves with a strong love for all things Zhodani.<BR>
<BR>
...or just be subtly influenced so that their natural <BR>
resentment of those Imperial officers gets a bit exaggerated and they <BR>
"naturally" decide that the b*st*rds must die...<BR>
<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 04:44:06 -0800<BR>
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Web Site<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Just had a look at your site, very nice so far. I like the backgrounds but<BR>
> for some reason the images are appearing tiled in my browser. I don't no<BR>
if<BR>
> this is your site or the way I have by browser (IE5 at 1024x768)<BR>
> Always nice to have a new Traveller site regardless of which rule set is<BR>
> used.<BR>
> Antony Farrell<BR>
><BR>
At a guess, I'd say it the resolution (I too use IE5 but at 800 x 600).<BR>
<BR>
Wayne<BR>
wewart@home.com<BR>
<BR>
Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.<BR>
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.<BR>
- - Terry Pratchett<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:00:48 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Frank wrote :<BR>
- ---<BR>
First there was<BR>
<BR>
"A Canticle for Liebowitz"<BR>
<BR>
then the newly topical<BR>
<BR>
"Flowers for Algernon"<BR>
<BR>
and now<BR>
<BR>
"A Coke for Kiri"<BR>
- ---<BR>
<BR>
Well I guess I'll have to read "A coke for Kiri" as I've read the other<BR>
two..:)<BR>
<BR>
LOL<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:20:45 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Read all about it ! Sixth Frontier War! It's Official! (... or not)<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, it gives a great excuse to play "Rambo" and try for<BR>
>a rescue mission.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<puts on turban><BR>
<BR>
As a spokesman for the Consulate, I feel that it is important for me to<BR>
point out that our borders are open to all Imperial citizens, as long as<BR>
they have no hostile intent. It is entirely possible that what you call<BR>
"POWs" are, in fact, defectors. Since our two civilizations have met we have<BR>
seen many such defectors, many more than your government would admit to.<BR>
Your intelligence agencies may be confused, or they may be working from<BR>
superannuated data. Of course, there's the possibility that they may be<BR>
deceiving you deliberately.<BR>
<BR>
<takes off turban><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:35:28 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
Not particularly likely... there is no evidence of "sustained phenomena" in<BR>
the rules norr in canon, nor is there any evidence of direct psionically<BR>
active hardware (with the possible exception of Virus, but that's for<BR>
another day/flame-war). <BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
The Zho's have simple psionically *activated* machinery, and they <BR>
do have some examples of psionically active hardware - the "Map"<BR>
from the Zhodani Alien supplement, for example. There doesn't seem to<BR>
be evidence that the Zho's can make their own, of course they are<BR>
very interested in devices anyone else can make or find.<BR>
<BR>
I think the Zho's could make an artwork with multiple psionically<BR>
flicked switches, each with different sensitivity or other responsiveness,<BR>
much like some Terran artists currently make artworks that respond <BR>
to different inputs of light or sound.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:41:27 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>><BR>
..or just be subtly influenced so that their natural <BR>
resentment of those Imperial officers gets a bit exaggerated and they <BR>
"naturally" decide that the b*st*rds must die...<BR>
>>>>>>><BR>
To the "benevolent Zhodani" camp: are the Zho's warm and understanding<BR>
psychotherapists to their loving proles, and evil mind-rapers to outsiders?<BR>
<BR>
They get to manipulate the proles for life. They only get a short time to<BR>
deal with outsiders, and these outsiders will have weirder brains.<BR>
Maybe the Zho's can't use subtle, "nice" techniques when re-educating<BR>
Imperials or others who haven't been acculturated to Zho ways...and<BR>
maybe the Zho's see such insane barbarians as lower life forms, with<BR>
brains that don't matter much anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Thus the Zho government wouldn't see anything wrong with using<BR>
the PC's as mind-altered weapons against the Imperial intelligence<BR>
agency that sent them, for example, but wouldn't *think* of using<BR>
one of their beloved proles that way.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:56:09 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
Thom Jones-Low wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
	At a certain point, making the simple (and brutal) technique more<BR>
effective require a better understanding of what's being mangled. You<BR>
can go so far with the Brute Force approach, each level requiring more<BR>
and more energy (Psi Strength), then one of the "Adjusters" takes a<BR>
second look at an "Unrecoverable" prole, and in a burst of creativity<BR>
discovers a second method of rewiring the brain. <BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
This creative adjustor may not ever see a "normal" brain to work on.<BR>
This "unrecoverable prole" won't get a close look until he's been<BR>
"helped" several times - by that time, what's going on in his brain<BR>
may bear only a passing resemblance to a brain's - even a defective<BR>
brain's - natural state.<BR>
<BR>
Thus the creative adjustor's technique will be an add-on to other<BR>
techniques, rather than a new technique.<BR>
<BR>
Adventure seed: a Zho telepath with unusual ideas sneaks out of the<BR>
consulate to do research on re-educating brains that have not been<BR>
ever touched by psionic techniques, so that she can personally usher<BR>
in a new age of enlightened re-education in Zhodani society. Her chosen<BR>
area to find test subjects in - the Imperium, since the Imperium's <BR>
anti-psionic culture will make it likely that anyone she wants to work on<BR>
has never even been psi-scanned before, much less manipulated. The <BR>
Tvarcheedl find out her plans, and see her as their worst nightmare - if<BR>
the Imperials find out, it'll be "Evil Zhodani mind rapers in our own <BR>
cities, on our own planets...so they send agents on her trail.<BR>
<BR>
The players can be involved as friends of a test subject, as Tvarcheedl<BR>
agents, or even as the researcher and her team themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:08:06 +0100<BR>
From: Holger Kadlez <Paradin@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > <snip><BR>
> > > This could be a basis for a espionage/rescue adventure, where<BR>
> > > the "rescuers" find out that they have been duped by false<BR>
> > > propaganda and there is nothing to be rescued. They have just<BR>
> > > killed large number of Zhodani children and senior citizens for<BR>
> > > no reason, and would now like to have a long private<BR>
> > > conversation with a certain imperial intelligence officers.<BR>
> <BR>
> > ... once they manage to get out of Zhodani-controlled space undetected.<BR>
> > Some passing noble might notice their stress (by psionic means), and<BR>
> > later decide to investigate. By that time, the PCs ship has already left<BR>
> > the planet, but it's not too far gone. Will the PCs make a run for it?<BR>
> > Will they be successful?<BR>
> <BR>
> > And if they are caught, will they be exectuted? Probably not, but they<BR>
> > just might find themselves with a strong love for all things Zhodani.<BR>
> <BR>
> ...or just be subtly influenced so that their natural<BR>
> resentment of those Imperial officers gets a bit exaggerated and they<BR>
> "naturally" decide that the b*st*rds must die...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
With the typical PC there won't be any need to do so. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
My 0.002 Cr<BR>
<BR>
Bye<BR>
Holger Paradin Kadlez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:13:17 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Evolution and the drifting generation ship (long)<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Evolutionary rates of change don't depend on time as such (we<BR>
>have been around unchanged for about 50,000 years - around 2,500<BR>
generations). What it depends on is the rate of change of nuclotide<BR>
>structure and both the selection pressure and the evolutionary<BR>
>pressure on the organisms concerned. Together with the generation<BR>
>rate of the organism, that will give you a rate of change due to<BR>
>evolutionary selection.<BR>
<BR>
	That's not a bad description, but just to clarify: organic<BR>
	evolution can be defined as a change in gene frequency over<BR>
	time. It's "rate" may be defined in a number of ways, but<BR>
	the most useful here would be the change in the average value<BR>
	of a given trait (such as the length of the legs) in a<BR>
	given time span (say 100 years). This rate will depend on the<BR>
	strength of natural selection (how strong is the relationship<BR>
	between the trait and the organism's ability to reproduce?)<BR>
	,the genetic variance of the trait (how much variation is<BR>
	there in that trait that is caused by genes?), and the<BR>
	generation time (how many generations have passed in the 100<BR>
	years?).<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Forty years is less than two full generations for humans so people<BR>
>will still be people when they get there - they may be socially<BR>
>strange, but they will be biologically fine, even if there are<BR>
>many mutations in the children. Remember too that most mutations<BR>
>die in the womb, so there are more likely to be only a few fully<BR>
>human children and perhaps one or two mutations than anything else.<BR>
<BR>
	A note about mutations: on average, each human on Terra has<BR>
	about two new mutations. That is, it has been estimated that<BR>
	each of us (on average) has two detectable genes that are<BR>
	different than any that our parents had. Even without<BR>
	considering this source of genetic variation, virtually every<BR>
	trait that has been studied has had at least some genetic<BR>
	variation, that is when artificial selection has been imposed<BR>
	evolution has occured.<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, the hydroponics tank has been growing<BR>
>vegetables for forty generations (one per year) assuming they<BR>
>grow from harvested seed rather than seed brought from Earth.<BR>
<BR>
	One generation per year sounds pretty low, depending on<BR>
	the plant. If I wanted carrots out of my hydroponics,<BR>
	I would choose fast-growing varieties and manipulate<BR>
	conditions so that there were far shorter generations<BR>
	(perhaps as low as a month with constant light, ideal<BR>
	temperatures, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
>If the mutation rate is 10% (and that is massive) then in the<BR>
>second generation one plant in ten will be a freak. If the<BR>
>selection pressure (how many of the "normal" plants die) is also<BR>
>a massive 10%, then the number of freaks is near enough one in<BR>
>nine. Even with the 90% failure rate for mutations (and that is a<BR>
>low number) then we have one successful freak for every ninety<BR>
>plants.<BR>
<BR>
	Of course, the ship may have unusually high radiation<BR>
	or chemical mutagen levels for one reason or another, but<BR>
	evolution is not thought to proceed by large mutations that<BR>
	produce "freaks." The generally accepted view is that small<BR>
	variations in traits are favoured incrimentally. Note that<BR>
	this mechanism has been observed in the lab to produce<BR>
	rates of evolution far higher than those observed in the<BR>
	fossil record.<BR>
<BR>
>By the third year, maybe 19% of the plants would be mutations -<BR>
>but they may not be successful. The evolutionary pressure (the<BR>
>number of possible ways to make food and breed successfully) will<BR>
>decide how many of these are going to breed next time.<BR>
<BR>
	If we are dealing with a major mutation, the important<BR>
	factor will be whether it is any better than it's buddies<BR>
	at reproducing. Major mutations are considered unlikely to<BR>
	have such an advantage, but perhaps one could be invoked<BR>
	to make one of the new species that the GM wants.<BR>
<BR>
>If the pressure is a massive 25% (which means there had to be a<BR>
>serious disaster on the ship) then we will have just short of 5%<BR>
>of the plants in the third year as freaks. At the end of the trip,<BR>
>there will be new breeds of vegetables on board - provided the<BR>
>humans don't interfere (fat chance).<BR>
<BR>
	Perhaps Darwin's most important observation was that many<BR>
	more organisms are produced than can possibly survive. If you<BR>
	mean by a "pressure" of 25% that 25% of the plants die, then<BR>
	I would suggest that mortality is unusually low. Typically,<BR>
	the vast majority of offspring that plants produce never live<BR>
	to maturity. You are quite correct, however, that the level<BR>
	of mortality is important: high mortality is a good<BR>
	opportunity for selection to act. As for the humans<BR>
	interfering, I don't think that there were any left alive<BR>
	on the ship.<BR>
<BR>
>Now the interesting bit. Those forty years amount to 350,000<BR>
>generations for the bacteria on board - more for the viruses<BR>
>brought by "accident" in the crew and plants. Given that the<BR>
>changing environment around the ship gives more opportunities to<BR>
>the bugs to breed, selection pressure will be low. On the other<BR>
>hand, having lots of places and creatures to breed in means that<BR>
evolutionary pressure will be large. With the increased mutation<BR>
>rate, there is plenty of time to develop new species (rather than<BR>
>new breeds, like the plants).<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	The distinction between species and breeds is difficult to<BR>
	make in many organisms, particularly bacteria. Nevertheless,<BR>
	it is true that bacteria would have plenty of opportunity to<BR>
	evolve.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:29:07 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Have any of you _read_ the various Zhodani supplements?<BR>
<BR>
Oh, RIGHT, Mr. Secular Humanist text-worshipper!  Just keep trying to<BR>
reduce the truth to mere BOOKS and see where that gets you.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:36:52 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultures (WAS Evolution...) Longish<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE writes:<BR>
>Shimmergloom wrote:<BR>
>>Well, the setting is non canon, so the 30,000 years is no<BR>
>>problem.  But I try to avoid over using the Ancients so they<BR>
>>don't get boring to the players.  I mainly wanted to know ho<BR>
>>long it might take for evolution to produce a new sophant<BR>
>>species on the ship so I could judge how long to have the ship<BR>
>>floating in space.  The species I have in mind are a tribe of<BR>
>>reptiles that are roughly late iron age.  (Using the stuff found<BR>
>>around the ship and worshiping the auto-repair system maybe.)<BR>
<BR>
	I hate to stick in the Ancients all over the place, but<BR>
	30,000 years is a long time to provide heat, light, etc.<BR>
	on a non-Ancient ship. As for time to evolve intelligence,<BR>
	it has been between 3 and 5 million years since we shared<BR>
	a (presumably non-sophont) common ancestor with chimps. Of<BR>
	course, we have been sophonts for a long time, maybe<BR>
	millions of years.<BR>
<BR>
>Part of that will depend on the original stock from which the<BR>
>race would develop.  Using primates as an example, it would take<BR>
>much longer for prosimians, such as lemurs, to develop into a<BR>
>sentient species than for apes, such as gibbons or orangutans.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Certainly evolution works with what you've got to start with.<BR>
	If there was a relatively intelligent reptile on board to<BR>
	start with, it would help things along (say a pet with dog-<BR>
	like or even better Int).<BR>
<BR>
<some good ideas snipped><BR>
>Obviously, the derelict ship in question would have to be large<BR>
>enough, or automated enough, to support a pre-technological race<BR>
>in sufficient numbers to allow the new race to develop.  As a wild<BR>
>guess, I would think that you would need to support a population<BR>
>of two or three million Saurians, since (having evolved on the ship)<BR>
>they would not have easy access to the technological knowledge<BR>
>databases of the ship's builders (who died out on the ship due to<BR>
>whatever handwave you choose).<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not sure I follow here. With minimal handwaving, I would<BR>
	think that you could get away with a few thousand sophonts<BR>
	(or even less, if you really had to). I can imagine rather<BR>
	small creatures with short generations and a lot of resistance<BR>
	to inbreeding. If the mutation rate was high enough, the small<BR>
	population would help keep a high rate of evolution (though<BR>
	a new species of sophonts in a few thousand years would still<BR>
	require the waving of a manipulative limb).<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>They may no longer know that they are on a spaceship, or that<BR>
>there was a world on which they evolved.  In fact, since all other<BR>
>lifeforms on the ship would be from their native planet, they may<BR>
>believe that they, and all other life aboard the ship, evolved on<BR>
>the ship.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Anyone remember the cheesy sci-fi about the humans on the Arc?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:47:30 -0600<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultures (WAS Evolution...) Longish<BR>
<BR>
>         Anyone remember the cheesy sci-fi about the humans on the Arc?<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
Earthship Ark.  Had an actor that was later Chekov (SP?) didn't it?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
"How much XP do we get if we join the bandits?"<BR>
<BR>
shimmer@mhtc.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:47:08 -0000<BR>
From: "Raymond Pullar" <Ray@shoggoth.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani PoWs<BR>
<BR>
> From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi><BR>
><BR>
> It is more likely that colonel Ruys de Bessier is deliberately<BR>
> spreading false anti-zhodani propaganda to get excuse for<BR>
> another war. This is the way the Evil Imperium has been working<BR>
> for ages.<BR>
><BR>
> This could be a basis for a espionage/rescue adventure, where<BR>
> the "rescuers" find out that they have been duped by false<BR>
> propaganda and there is nothing to be rescued. They have just<BR>
> killed large number of Zhodani children and senior citizens for<BR>
> no reason, and would now like to have a long private<BR>
> conversation with a certain imperial intelligence officers.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Even more amusingly, the rescuers locate the world upon which the "PoWs" are<BR>
being "held" and discover that they are indeed former Imperial combatants<BR>
but that they are now *voluntarily* living as good Zhodani proles having<BR>
"seen the light" and defected to the obviously superior society of the<BR>
Consulate.  They will obviously resist strongly any attempts to forcibly<BR>
return them to the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
That should keep both the anti and the pro-Zho camps on the list happy.  I<BR>
hope ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ray Pullar<BR>
ray@shoggoth.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
"Truth has never yet clung to the arm of an inflexible man."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:59:35 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fifth Frontier War Starts 20 November<BR>
<BR>
Kristian,<BR>
<BR>
I will be there.<BR>
<BR>
Luther<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 10:51 PM<BR>
Subject: Fifth Frontier War Starts 20 November<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Bay Area Traveller Players note that on 20 November I'l be hosting<BR>
> the first meeting for The Fifth Frontier War at my house.  RSVP by<BR>
> email if you can make it.  Anyone welcome.<BR>
> <BR>
> Kristian<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 06:37:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nth Provincial Flamewar<BR>
<BR>
At 05:52 PM 11/9/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav (no, really!):  A tiny group of separatists, consisting mainly of<BR>
>lunatic discontents, tax dodgers and self-taught lawyers, insist that the<BR>
>treaties making their planet/nation/enclave part of the Imperium are<BR>
>invalid.  <BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Of course, the Imperium doesn't have the Bill of Rights.  The moment these<BR>
guys announced they weren't part of the Imperium, they're open to having a<BR>
platoon of Marines drop in for a chat.  Survivors to be tried for sedition.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
If someone is arrested for jaywalking or littering just<BR>
after midnight next New Year's Eve, for at least a minute<BR>
or two he will have committed the crime of the century. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 06:42:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: States in the Imperium (was Re: Coke for Kiri [OT]) [OT]<BR>
<BR>
At 12:33 PM 11/10/1999 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>as head of state, it is a bit rich.I personally was of two minds on the<BR>
>republic, as I was loath to loose all the cool imperial monikers and<BR>
>pagents.<BR>
<BR>
Trust me, you wouldn't lose them all.. we threw out the monarchy over<BR>
two-hundred years ago, and we're still obsessed witht he Royal family.<BR>
When we can't get them, we watch the closest American equivilant, the<BR>
Kennedy caln.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:10:27 -0800<BR>
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com><BR>
Subject: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF2B53.0C63A4C0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
FW: (Fwd) FW: IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......In time for Remembrance =<BR>
Day.....=20<BR>
<BR>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20<BR>
THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS=20<BR>
'TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS,=20<BR>
HE LIVED ALL ALONE,=20<BR>
IN A ONE BEDROOM HOUSE=20<BR>
MADE OF PLASTER AND STONE.=20<BR>
<BR>
I HAD COME DOWN THE CHIMNEY=20<BR>
WITH PRESENTS TO GIVE,=20<BR>
AND TO SEE JUST WHO=20<BR>
IN THIS HOME DID LIVE.=20<BR>
<BR>
I LOOKED ALL ABOUT,=20<BR>
A STRANGE SIGHT I DID SEE,=20<BR>
NO TINSEL, NO PRESENTS,=20<BR>
NOT EVEN A TREE.=20<BR>
<BR>
NO STOCKING BY MANTLE,=20<BR>
JUST BOOTS FILLED WITH SAND,=20<BR>
ON THE WALL HUNG PICTURES=20<BR>
OF FAR DISTANT LANDS.=20<BR>
<BR>
WITH MEDALS AND BADGES,=20<BR>
AWARDS OF ALL KINDS,=20<BR>
A SOBER THOUGHT=20<BR>
CAME THROUGH MY MIND.=20<BR>
<BR>
FOR THIS HOUSE WAS DIFFERENT,=20<BR>
IT WAS DARK AND DREARY,=20<BR>
I FOUND THE HOME OF A SOLDIER,=20<BR>
ONCE I COULD SEE CLEARLY.=20<BR>
<BR>
THE SOLDIER LAY SLEEPING,=20<BR>
SILENT, ALONE,=20<BR>
CURLED UP ON THE FLOOR=20<BR>
IN THIS ONE BEDROOM HOME.=20<BR>
<BR>
THE FACE WAS SO GENTLE,=20<BR>
THE ROOM IN SUCH DISORDER,=20<BR>
NOT AT ALL=20<BR>
HOW I PICTURED SOLDIER.=20<BR>
<BR>
WAS THIS THE HERO OF WHOM I'D JUST READ?=20<BR>
CURLED UP ON A PONCHO, THE FLOOR FOR A BED?=20<BR>
I REALIZED THE FAMILIES=20<BR>
THAT I SAW THIS NIGHT,=20<BR>
OWED THEIR LIVES TO THESE SOLDIERS=20<BR>
WHO WERE WILLING TO FIGHT.=20<BR>
<BR>
SOON ROUND THE WORLD,=20<BR>
THE CHILDREN WOULD PLAY,=20<BR>
AND GROWNUPS WOULD CELEBRATE=20<BR>
A BRIGHT CHRISTMAS DAY.=20<BR>
<BR>
THEY ALL ENJOYED FREEDOM=20<BR>
EACH MONTH OF THE YEAR,=20<BR>
BECAUSE OF THE SOLDIERS,=20<BR>
LIKE THE ONE LYING HERE.=20<BR>
<BR>
I COULDN'T HELP WONDER=20<BR>
HOW MANY LAY ALONE,=20<BR>
ON A COLD CHRISTMAS EVE=20<BR>
IN A LAND FAR FROM HOME.=20<BR>
<BR>
THE VERY THOUGHT=20<BR>
BROUGHT A TEAR TO MY EYE,=20<BR>
I DROPPED TO MY KNEES=20<BR>
AND STARTED TO CRY=20<BR>
<BR>
THE SOLDIER AWAKENED=20<BR>
AND I HEARD A ROUGH VOICE,=20<BR>
"SANTA DON'T CRY,=20<BR>
THIS LIFE IS MY CHOICE;=20<BR>
<BR>
I FIGHT FOR FREEDOM,=20<BR>
I DON'T ASK FOR MORE,=20<BR>
MY LIFE IS MY GOD,=20<BR>
MY COUNTRY, MY CORPS."=20<BR>
<BR>
THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER=20<BR>
AND DRIFTED TO SLEEP,=20<BR>
I COULDN'T CONTROL IT,=20<BR>
I CONTINUED TO WEEP.=20<BR>
<BR>
I KEPT WATCH FOR HOURS,=20<BR>
SO SILENT AND STILL=20<BR>
AND WE BOTH SHIVERED=20<BR>
FROM THE COLD NIGHT'S CHILL.=20<BR>
<BR>
I DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE=20<BR>
ON THAT COLD, DARK,NIGHT,=20<BR>
THIS GUARDIAN OF HONOR=20<BR>
SO WILLING TO FIGHT.=20<BR>
<BR>
THEN THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER, WITH A VOICE SOFT AND PURE, WHISPERED, =<BR>
"CARRY=20<BR>
ON SANTA, IT'S CHRISTMAS DAY, ALL IS SECURE." ONE LOOK AT MY WATCH, AND =<BR>
I=20<BR>
KNEW HE WAS RIGHT.=20<BR>
"MERRY CHRISTMAS MY FRIEND, AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT."=20<BR>
This poem was written by a Marine stationed in=20<BR>
Okinawa Japan.  The=20<BR>
following is his request. I think it is=20<BR>
reasonable.....=20<BR>
<BR>
PLEASE. Would you do me the kind favor of sending this to as many people =<BR>
as=20<BR>
you can? Christmas will be coming soon and some credit is due to our=20<BR>
U.S.and Canadian service men and women for our being able to celebrate=20<BR>
these festivities.=20<BR>
Let's try in this small way to pay a tiny bit of what we owe. Make =<BR>
people=20<BR>
stop and think of our heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed themselves =<BR>
<BR>
for us. Please, do your small part to plant this small seed.=20<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF2B53.0C63A4C0<BR>
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</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><TITLE>FW: (Fwd) FW: IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......</TITLE><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.1300" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
In time for Remembrance =<BR>
Day..... <BR>
<BR>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D <BR>
THE NIGHT BEFORE=20CHRISTMAS <BR>
'TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE =CHRISTMAS,=20<BR>
HE LIVED ALL ALONE, <BR>
IN A =ONE BEDROOM=20HOUSE <BR>
MADE OF PLASTER AND STONE. <BR>
I HAD COME DOWN THE CHIMNEY <BR>
WITH=20PRESENTS TO GIVE, <BR>
AND TO SEE JUST WHO =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>IN THIS HOME DID LIVE. <BR>
I LOOKED ALL ABOUT, <BR>
A =STRANGE SIGHT I=20DID SEE, <BR>
NO TINSEL, NO PRESENTS, =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>NOT EVEN A TREE. <BR>
NO STOCKING BY MANTLE, <BR>
JUST =BOOTS FILLED=20WITH SAND, <BR>
ON THE WALL HUNG PICTURES =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>OF FAR DISTANT LANDS. <BR>
WITH MEDALS AND BADGES, <BR>
AWARDS OF ALL=20KINDS, <BR>
A SOBER THOUGHT <BR>
CAME=20THROUGH MY MIND. <BR>
FOR THIS HOUSE WAS DIFFERENT, <BR>
IT WAS=20DARK AND DREARY, <BR>
I FOUND THE HOME OF A =SOLDIER,=20<BR>
ONCE I COULD SEE CLEARLY. <BR>
THE SOLDIER LAY SLEEPING, <BR>
SILENT,=20ALONE, <BR>
CURLED UP ON THE FLOOR <BR>
IN=20THIS ONE BEDROOM HOME. <BR>
THE FACE WAS SO GENTLE, <BR>
THE =ROOM IN SUCH=20DISORDER, <BR>
NOT AT ALL <BR>
HOW I=20PICTURED SOLDIER. <BR>
WAS THIS THE HERO OF WHOM I'D JUST READ? =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>CURLED UP ON A PONCHO, THE FLOOR FOR A BED? <BR>
I=20REALIZED THE FAMILIES <BR>
THAT I SAW THIS =NIGHT,=20<BR>
OWED THEIR LIVES TO THESE SOLDIERS <BR>
WHO=20WERE WILLING TO FIGHT. <BR>
SOON ROUND THE WORLD, <BR>
THE =CHILDREN WOULD=20PLAY, <BR>
AND GROWNUPS WOULD CELEBRATE =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>A BRIGHT CHRISTMAS DAY. <BR>
THEY ALL ENJOYED FREEDOM <BR>
EACH MONTH OF=20THE YEAR, <BR>
BECAUSE OF THE SOLDIERS, =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>LIKE THE ONE LYING HERE. <BR>
I COULDN'T HELP WONDER <BR>
HOW =MANY LAY=20ALONE, <BR>
ON A COLD CHRISTMAS EVE =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>IN A LAND FAR FROM HOME. <BR>
THE VERY THOUGHT <BR>
BROUGHT A =TEAR TO MY=20EYE, <BR>
I DROPPED TO MY KNEES <BR>
AND=20STARTED TO CRY <BR>
THE SOLDIER AWAKENED <BR>
AND I =HEARD A ROUGH=20VOICE, <BR>
"SANTA DON'T CRY, <BR>
THIS=20LIFE IS MY CHOICE; <BR>
I FIGHT FOR FREEDOM, <BR>
I DON'T =ASK FOR=20MORE, <BR>
MY LIFE IS MY GOD, <BR>
MY=20COUNTRY, MY CORPS." <BR>
THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER <BR>
AND =DRIFTED TO=20SLEEP, <BR>
I COULDN'T CONTROL IT, <BR>
I=20CONTINUED TO WEEP. <BR>
I KEPT WATCH FOR HOURS, <BR>
SO =SILENT AND=20STILL <BR>
AND WE BOTH SHIVERED <BR>
FROM=20THE COLD NIGHT'S CHILL. <BR>
I DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE <BR>
ON =THAT COLD,=20DARK,NIGHT, <BR>
THIS GUARDIAN OF HONOR =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>SO WILLING TO FIGHT. <BR>
THEN THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER, WITH A VOICE SOFT AND = PURE,=20WHISPERED, "CARRY <BR>
ON SANTA, IT'S CHRISTMAS =DAY, ALL IS=20SECURE." ONE LOOK AT MY WATCH, AND I <BR>
KNEW HE =WAS=20RIGHT. <BR>
"MERRY CHRISTMAS MY FRIEND, AND TO ALL =A GOOD=20NIGHT." <BR>
This poem was written by a Marine =stationed=20in <BR>
Okinawa Japan.&nbsp; The <BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>following is his request. I think it is <BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>reasonable..... <BR>
PLEASE. Would you do me the kind favor of sending this =to as=20many people as <BR>
you can? Christmas will be =coming soon=20and some credit is due to our <BR>
U.S.and Canadian =service=20men and women for our being able to celebrate <BR>
these=20festivities. <BR>
Let's try in this small way to =pay a tiny=20bit of what we owe. Make people <BR>
stop and think =of our=20heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed themselves <BR>
for=20us. Please, do your small part to plant this small seed.=20<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF2B53.0C63A4C0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1333<BR>
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